Problem with refunding to Internet Bank

[A-two]

After a bit of sniffing about I found this on the Skandiabanken website:

Paolo,
That is so kind of you, thank you. I passed the information onto the New York Bank. They can accept the SWIFT code, but have rejected the bank address, because it is the intermediary, not the end bank, which could be somewhere completely different (yeah, like Cybertown.... lol ).

In the meantime, my guest has found an old account at a traditional bank, Postbanken, which is part of the same group, so I am now trying again. The SWIFT code and address is exactly the same as I gave them before, the reason being that Postbanken is owned by DNB, which also handles currency on behalf of Skandiabanken. But because Postbanken exists as a bricks and mortar bank, where Skandiabanken does not, they will accept it.

I'm now waiting for confirmation, but they say it looks good to go Monday.

Somebody above mentioned they even have problems between two of their own accounts at Barclays because they are in different countries. That's always been true for any bank, even pre 9/11. There are very strict rules about how banks talk to each other internally across international boundaries, for reasons of money laundering, drug money etc. Essentially, they are not allowed to do it, so it doesn't matter whether it's a transfer from stranger to stranger, or between two of your own accounts in the same name, if an international boundary is involved, it still has to go through rigorous procedures and cannot be done internally.

We do have internet banks here, or online accounts anyway, but my guess is that you cannot get one that isn't linked to a traditional bank account held in the same name and that funds cannot be sent across country borders to and from that account directly, but must go through a traditional account first. At least that seems to be exactly what they have insisted upon in this transaction.

Apologies for the excruciatingly boring minutiae, but it may be useful to those of you dealing with US guests who may have trouble making bank transfers from the US in a timely fashion and I thank you all for your help.

[Guest3]

Apologies for the excruciatingly boring minutiae, but it may be useful to those of you dealing with US guests

Not at all boring Joanna...it's been useful! All this info goes into the 'pot' for reference. This thread also makes us aware that transferring money internationally is not as easy as it is made out to be by Banking enterprises!

[A-two]

What gets me is every time I have to transfer money, I have to go to the bank in person to do it.

Helen,
Ask your bank for a fax mandate to sign, which is kept on your file, then you can fax instructions from anywhere in the world. It's less secure, but it's an option you can ask for.

[Guest3]

Helen,
Ask your bank for a fax mandate to sign, which is kept on your file, then you can fax instructions from anywhere in the world. It's less secure, but it's an option you can ask for.

Not a good idea..as I recall this is where Fraise got diddled out of alot of money from her bank account in France...(I think it was via a fax)...correct me if I'm wrong Fraise (I can't find the thread re.this subject).

[Hells Bells]

I knew there was a snag to that one. Funny, but my French banks asks me to fax the request for the transfer, and I've never been happy about it, especially as they never let me know if they recieve it or not. I was nearly sleeping in the car at Xmas in temps of -25, after a fax went astray.

[vrooje]

I thought of Fraise a couple of months ago, when I had to fax a transfer request. They faxed back a confirmation, which I signed. It did disturb me a little, because the fax number was mine (and not my parents', which is the one on file with the bank), and it was the first time I had ever done it, so I'm not sure how they knew my signature (which was in fact my authorized reproduction of my mother's signature, so that wouldn't have matched the signature they had on file from my mother).

I've occasionally wondered whether I opened myself up to fraud because the bank will now accept all faxed transfer requests from my account, or whether I protected myself by setting up a precedent with the correct fax number and (a) correct signature.

Oh, and like Fraise, we use C-A, so it's even more relevant...

[A-two]

I recall this is where Fraise got diddled out of alot of money from her bank account in France...(I think it was via a fax.

Yes it was, but the whole point was that Fraise had not given the bank a fax mandate on her account at all. They acted on a forged one without checking AND without using any other safety checks. That's unforgiveable.

Some people can't go in person and any good bank will have in place adequate safeguards to reduce risk when receiving remote instructions. As the customer, it's really very small. Remember, if they get it wrong, as they did with Fraise, it's their liability not yours, so of course they are going to tell you to go in person and show ID because it's less work, less expense and less risk for them.

I don't want to go into details here, but they don't just receive a fax and act on it without even telling you, it's more involved than that. Anyway, you can ask your bank how they handle it, and if you don't feel comfortable, then don't do it and each to their own...

p.s. Brooke, I've just seen your response above and I agree that's scary. Are you sure they didn't contact your mother first before agreeing to this?

[Guest3]

Joanna said

.... the whole point was that Fraise had not given the bank a fax mandate on her account at all. They acted on a forged one without checking AND without using any other safety checks. That's unforgiveable.

Some people can't go in person and any good bank will have in place adequate safeguards to reduce risk, it's really very small. Remember, if they get it wrong, as they did with Fraise, it's their liability not yours,

Yes I agree totally, but the key phrase is "without checking" legit fax mandate or forged fax mandate! It is the banks liability at the end of the day. However as Fraise can tell you from her own experience...it's not an 'easy ride' to get back your own money which was defrauded without your knowledge!

I personally would not authorise a bank transfer via fax mandate.

[vrooje]

Are you sure they didn't contact your mother first before agreeing to this?

Yes, 100% sure. She doesn't speak enough French to have taken the call, and in any case she would definitely have told me about it.

I also forgot one detail: the first time I faxed the request, it was apparently ignored. I faxed it again, with a cover letter asking them to confirm their receipt of the transfer and inviting them to confirm it with me via my telephone number on record (but they didn't). A few hours later, they sent me their transfer form requiring a signature. I signed it, faxed it back, and after the transfer went through, my parents received confirmation of the transfer to their address (on record).

[Fraise]

Joanna said " Yes it was, but the whole point was that Fraise had not given the bank a fax mandate on her account at all. They acted on a forged one without checking AND without using any other safety checks. That's unforgiveable.". She was right, they had no request from me to use a fax,I had never done so before ( or after ). The signature on the fax looked like mine ( it was really well done and I have very flowery writing !).The name on the fax was my husbands but the signature was mine( well, forged ). We got some of the money bacl last month but we still haven't got the interest or the "insult" money and it is almost 2 years ago now. It was Devilishly hard getting the bank to admit they were wrong- they never did in fact . The lawyers made a lot of money out of it !!
Do you know CA sent me a mail shot ( here in UK) this week telling me how good they are and what services they offer,it was actually sent from the branch that defrauded me !

[vrooje]

The signature on the fax looked like mine ( it was really well done and I have very flowery writing !).

That's alarming! Does that suggest that it was someone you know who did this?

[Fraise]

The problem is Brooke that the French cheques seem to give an alarming amount of info out! How did the thief know there was so much money IN the account in the first place, enough to try again for more the next day too ? I question the banking procedures, someone must have had inside knowledge- you couldn't just try any account willy nilly for such an amount. Apparently all phone calls are supposed by law to be kept by the bank for 6 months- when this guy rang the bank asking for the money,the bank suggested he fax them- he did, using the wrong phone number- exactly the same wrong phone number the bank had on record ( all to do with the difference in the number of digits in UK numbers and French ones)-when we opened our account 8 years earlier we had given them the correct number but hadn't realised they had missed off the last digit cos their 'puter system couldn't fit the whole number in. They therefore couldn't contact us in UK. They managed to contact us In France all right a couple of days later ( we were there for Christmas ) to tell me I was overdrawn !
One of the major things that put me off CA was the treatment we received. When it first happened we were quite calm as we assumed some mistake had been made and we would get our money back . As time went on we were made to feel like criminals by the bank _ they had the affrontary to have us in the office and INTERROGATE us twice ! Meanwhile, we had been to the gendarmerie to report the theft and we have never heard any more! I would never go back to CA .
The phone number thing is still worrying as I opened a postoffice bank account and when I wanted a chequier d'emploi I put in my UK details and they couldn't process it- the guy from the post office rang me up in France ( luckily I was there this summer) and told me the computer system wouldn't take my UK phone number ! Grrrr...dinosaur systems...not secure !

[Paul Carmel]

I hang my head in SHAME

We had to rtn a deposit to the US, and to cut a long story short it took over 5 months for the client to get his money back, The basic problem is that French and US systems just did not like each other, coupled with the fact that the guy was totally incapable of giving us the correct details, which cost us dearly.............Cheers Soc Gen!

In the end we did it by WESTERN UNION ( frankly I can't believe I am admitting to this on a open fourm ) But it worked like a dream, and it was the same rate as the bank would have charged us, and they had the cash in their hands within a couple of hours.

In my wildest dreams I never thought I would ever give WU a plug but in this case I wish we had done it sooner!

If anyone is wondering why I feel so shameful please go to the scam part of this fourm, and hopefully you will understand and forgive.

[vrooje]

Oh dear, Paul. You know we will tease you mercilessly for this. How could you do such a thing?

[Guest3]

In the end we did it by WESTERN UNION

We have loads of bureau de change here in Fuengirola that also advertise Western Union for international transfers. It could be another way of beating banking red tape between Europe and the States. Never thought of that!

I know WU is the way scammers use to get their money, but can anyone tell tell me how WU transfers work...i.e. is your own bank involved somewhere along the line in the transfer process?