Getting to grips with vandalism in rural France

[Jimbo]

A jury consists of twelve persons chosen to decide who has the better lawyer ... Robert Frost,

A friend recently had two small plastic air vent protectors stolen from the bonnet of her car parked outside her house in her village. She hadn't actually noticed the vents had disappeared but it hadn't escaped the attention of the local gendarmie.

After a lot of effort, three local youths were apprehended and were duly sent to court for the offence. Our friend thanked the gendarmes but said she thought they'd gone to too much trouble for a couple of bits of plastic worth almost nothing. Mais non, Madame, said the officers. If we catch and punish vandals - and humiliate their parents - at an early stage, hopefully they won't progress to bigger naughtinesses in the future.

So, well done the local gendarmes in SW France. Are you listening the local plods in SE England? Particularly the ones in our previous home in a pretty little seaside town in SE England awash with vandalism, graffiti and feral youths prowling the streets at night.

Jim

[Big Sis..]

So, well done the local gendarmes in SW France. Are you listening the local plods in SE England? Particularly the ones in our previous home in a pretty little seaside town in SE England awash with vandalism, graffiti and feral youths prowling the streets at night.

Your right Jim & Good for France...

Trouble is its not all the plods fault theres been so much legislation in all things in England that most of the time their hands are tied........
If they do get them ...and the small number that get prosecuted...what happens...nowt.
Does that mean that they should stop trying of course not
but it must seem pointless most of the time.
Theres no respect for Police or the Law from most of these youngsters or their parents ...
Which is where this problem stems from and they will then go on to be the Parents of the future with THEIR kids doing the same or worse.

My Dad was a PC years ago and often dished out the odd clip round the ear to offending youngsters who most of the time thought that was Fair enough...
but now what would happen the PC would be suspended
[on Full pay] for months probably loose his job, while little Johnnie is made to be some sort of hero..and of course little Johnnie & Mum would be able to tell you chapter and verse what his rights are[probably the only thing that he is taught]

If my kids ever got into this sort of trouble they wouldnt worry about what the Police would say more like what I would say

When my eldest was about 5-6 We got home from a shopping trip and she showed me some sweeteners shed picked up in our local Boots and put in here pocket.
WELL : .... we were back on the bus she was marched into the shop and made to explain to a very stern official looking Lady[actually very nice but she knew what I was doing] who she apologised to and gave the offending sweeteners back.
She still talks about it and shes 28...Actually shes a supervisor in a Large Local Department store and says you wont believe what the younsters do sometimes[usually egged on by the parents]...

So Its not just down to the plods but the parents

[enid]

Don't get me started - as many of you know I was a headteacher in the Uk - inner city schools with 'challenged' catchment areas. I turned 4 failing schools round. How? - zero tolerance. We agreed the rules through discussions in each class etc etc and then we policed it - I picked children up for the smallest misdemeanour and praised them when they behaved well and in only a few weeks the schools changed - soon we were receiving visitors from other school to see how calm and orderly the school was. It's not rocket science.

Ros is so right that the police have their hands tied. Everyone knows their rights but I believe that society as a whole has rights and needs protecting. Who was that policeman in the NE who tried zero tolerance? - I can't rememeber what happened but I know he was sent packing even though it looked like his policy was working.

I agree that the it is good to live here without the vandalism etc - let's hope it lasts

[Jimbo]

Trouble is its not all the plods fault ...

Sorry, Ros IS right and I didn't mean to start a 'knocking the police' thread. They have a difficult and sometimes impossible job unless they're supported by their communities.

My point is really Enid's point - and our local gendarmes point - that, if you knock trouble on the head early, it may not progress to worse things later. I formed the impression in the UK - from personal experience - that vandalism and low-level crime weren't being taken seriously any more. And that, I think, is seriously bad news for any community.

Jim

[Big Sis..]

My point is really Enid's point - and our local gendarmes point - that, if you knock trouble on the head early, it may not progress to worse things later. I formed the impression in the UK - from personal experience - that vandalism and low-level crime weren't being taken seriously any more. And that, I think, is seriously bad news for any community.

Absolutely 100% right Jimbo and Enid

I work with toddlers to 3 year old and am amazed to see Mums give up on trying to get their children to do the right thing....I cant manage him/her she wont do what I say Ive given up... there not even three...........
What they really mean is they cant be bothered...especially if they might have to move of their seat theyre sat on....

They think[wrongly that theyre saving themselves work ...how WRONG they are] not only are they guaranteeing a life of trouble they also passing it onto us.
I speak to the child whose pushing,snatching,screaming, not sharing, in a nice but firm way...and they love it ...they love to be trusted to do the right thing...[once you let them know what it is...]
How can they feel proud of themselves if they not guided into it by parents.

When we have the BIG slide out [at least 4' high]

Theyre are strict rules...queuing, no pushing ,one at a time, and Im there at a slight distance away watching.....Sometimes they do something wrong or stand on it in a way that Ive said not to as its dangerous....
Just to test Im watching and more importantly...
that Im bothered that they dont get hurt...Its as if theyre saying look I shouldnt be here I might hurt myself.
I speak to them...nicely dont do that you might hurt yourself.
Then I can see them relax and they run off playing safe in the knowledge that some ones taking charge and then they really show how much they think of me always running to give me hugs or sit on my lap.
I think thats what they want in their lives.

We all probably moaned at times when our parents stopped us doing something but at least they were interested in what we did....
There are some great Mums struggling to do the right thing dont get me wrong.........
But a lot have already thrown in the towel

[Hells Bells]

Enid, it was Ray Mallon, the chief constable of Cleveland police, and now (I think) their elected Mayor.

[enid]

Yes that's him Helen - I remember now the people wanted him as mayor. I understand exactly what Ros is saying to re parents who renege on their responsibilities. It's a shame that we need these super nanny etc programmes to point out fundamental issues. All children are relieved to have boundaries set.

We were at a 60th birthday on Sat - our neighbours brought their 15 year old, the only young person there. She is quite shy and there were a lot of English there who don't speak French so after speaking to the people she knew like us she crept off into a corner. Later I heard her father ticking her off saying- we have been invited here by our neighbours who are trying to make an effort to join our comminity - it isn't too much to ask for you to be more polite and smile - it's only one evening after all. Did she rebel?- well perhaps inside- but she came out of her corner and made a huge effort.

It's easy to blame the police et all but parents should be responsible for the behaviour of their children.

Sorry - I told you this was my rant subject

[la vache!]

I lived in rural England before moving to rural France and see no difference in the level of crime. On the other hand, when I lived in central Bristol, my car was broken into twice and my flat once.
If any of you who live in France saw the France 2 émisson last night 'A vous de juger' when Sarkozy was interviewed and there were various reports of all the problems that happen related to crime and vandalism in the banlieus of Paris, it is clear that France has just as many problems, if not more than the UK, just not in the rural areas where most Brits choose to live.

[Partridge]

How very apt this conversation is. I have literally just returned from the post office where I observed 'Vicky Pollard' and her children. One about 7yrs and unfortunately designated parent to a horrid 2 year old who ran amock everywhere and the screaming infant in the pushchair. What was Mum doing ? the extremely difficult job of posting a package and sticking a label on to it. I swear to God she did not look up or bat an eye lid for a full two minutes other than to say 'Jay, you keeping an eye on him / Jay, watch the baby / Jay, run after him, you're supposed to be looking after him'

Hellooooooooooooooo Vicky, thicky pants, try washing your hair, why aren't you watching, do you have a single brain cell, POLLARD.....screaaaaaaaaaam

THIS is the main problem and one that I have seen in supermarkets and bank queues over and over with more regularity than I would have ever thought possible even only 5 years ago. I hate to say it but I swear it is the influence of the likes of Big brother, love Ilsand, Posh & Becks and too many other of our other 'sporting heros'. It is definitely worse in the London boroughs where I live.

[mpprh]

Hmm

Years ago, I lived in an upmarket, apparently well heeled, commuter village.

I had 1 car completely vandalised. Deep scratches in every panel requiring a complete respray.

2 years later, I had the badges on my company car levered off. The gouges were about 12" long around each badge. The car had about 6 badges.

About 6 months later, village plod arrived for a chat.

They knew who had done the first car. It was the older brother of "the badge man". They had found over 100 car badges at his home and further questioning involved the older brother. He only collected badges from newish, expensive cars.

The police response was "well, difficult family, single mother, we won't press any charges".

I moved before the next brother joined the family business.

I reckon the 100+ badge collection represented repair costs of GBP 25,000+.

Peter

[AndyH]

Ros is so right that the police have their hands tied.

Sorry if this is going off the subject even more, but just wanted to say.....

Although crime in Surrey is lower than a lot of the UK, Surrey Police have now withdrawn all their motorway patrols away from routine on the motorways to divisional work because the Chief Inspector is so worried about the rising crime rates. With the new Highways Agency Traffic Officers now on the motorways 24/7 this was seen as a quick win for the police.

[Jacqui]

Just thought I would put my two penneth worth in? (Have I spelt that right??? Not sure!! )

We have a 15 yr old boy and when we came over to France he was 12, not a great age I hear people whisper - very difficult age, diffcult because of the langauge, etc, etc and yes it was extremely difficult for him, but one of the major reasons for leaving was that I was very worried about what he was doing, where he was going, etc in the UK. I wasn't worried per se about him being a trouble maker really but more about what could be done to him by the the "yob culture".
We had an incident where a lad (16) had tried to take my sons bike - but not only that had thumped him and then kicked him, it was only because the bike was new that my son went and fought back (admittedly he has always been a big lad!). So he comes home, with bike in tears - well my hubby saw red - off they went down the town and yes, hubby did go at this lad scared the s*** out of him! Hubby them promptly went to the police station and told them what he had done.....all the police said were good on you sir, we could do with a bit more of that but if the lad comes in you will have to be arrested.

The problem with all of this is that it makes people scared to go out, kids can't have what I would consider a "normal" childhood, old people are frightened to open their doors, you get no respect at all.

Anyway here we are today - we always have a house full of kids around - all come in a shake my husbands hand and kiss me, they all have manners, they all make a lot of noise, yes we hear them swearing and going on as young lads do, play some awful music, yes they all turn up on awful sounding mopeds (including our own!), they all go "hang" on a Saturday night in the local town, they probably drink a bit, party a bit and there are usually a couple of girls hanging around - but is that not "normal"?

I ultimately am not worried about fights, binge drinking, drugs in the same ways as I was in the UK. I will walk up to the shop when it's dark nowadays without being scared of a gang of kids, they are far more likely to accost me to say hello and kiss me, rather than hurl abuse!
We didn't live in a huge city, it was just a run of the mill market town, nothing grand, lots of coutryside, yet still I wouldn't go back if you paid me now!!

[Topcat]

Hi! I don't normally look at the specifically France issues, but I just saw this thread and was interested enough to comment.

There is no rhyme or reason to why a place can be a difficult place in which to live. My son lives in a market town in Devon. When I visit, I think "what a charming little place". There are two lovely old shopping arcades, a couple of really nice pubs and a wonderful restaurant on the river, delightful shops of the 'indoor living boutique' sort of style, a smashing old traditional haberdashers, and altogether a delightful place to live. On the face of it. But when you have kids, you are forced to look beneath the surface of a place which I, at my age, never see. My son and DIL have had to take their two youngest (13 years old) out of school because of the most terrifying and vindictive bullying. And it all came about because one of them was in the difficult position of having two birthday parties on the same day, and, unluckily for her, picked the wrong one to attend. After that she received text after threatening text, was waited for outside school, and even attacked in front of one of the teachers. My son and DIL went up to the school, but all they were offered was a bolt hole for their children. In other words, we can't do anything about it so you'd better just hide.

Fortunately the two kids have been accepted in another school in another little market town 20 miles away, where they have made instant friends, find the teachers human, and are generally much more happy (though my poor DIL now has to drive 40 miles every day to get them there).

I guess I'm very lucky. I live between two small towns (that is, sometimes I live in one and sometimes in the other), one in Essex and one in Suffolk, and I am not aware of anything major in either of them. The local paper sometimes has a terrifying tale about the children of the yacht club crowd cat calling and jostling some of the theatre goers, whilst their parents are at the yacht club annual do, but I personally have walked through that crowd of teenagers drinking on the sea wall without either incident or concern.

I think I'm saying 2 things in a very rambling way (it's good that you're all very patient on here!). One is that it takes a particular combination of circumstances to turn one place sour yet leave the place next door untouched. And it can happen anywhere. And the other is that kids live in a jungle, and however charming a place may look, when you've got to negotiate a way through it at 12 or 13, it can be a different world. It can almost be like there are two towns existing in a parallel space.

These are only experiential observations, I'm not soap boxing or moralising or anything.

Cheers,

Pauline

[ejc-free]

This is an interesting thread - we've 3 sons - 2 older in their early 20s and our youngest who is 10. We've brought them all up the same - they know that their actions both good and bad have consquences which may be pleasant but if they break the rules - then those consquences are unpleasant, but as a parent we need to be consistant. I don't think this is a situation that has anything to do with "place" except that in France it does appear that because families socialise as families everyone is involved with the children from an extended family / friend group and not just the parents.....

The trouble we often see is that parents today often take the easy route now and don't enforce some basic rules with their children when they're young - which means they're on a slippery path. All the kids learn is that if they play up and are obnoxious enough then eventually they get their own way.

We have some good friends of whom we're very fond - but their kids are becoming monsters - because they don't have boundaries - and seem to get more attention when being "naughty" than when being well behaved - so they get negative re-inforcement. It will not be too difficult to understand that we'll be "full" when they want to visit after our move to France - we couldn't possibly take them or their children out and about locally - they simply cannot behave and have no table manners at all.

[Rocket Rab]

We have some good friends of whom we're very fond.... we couldn't possibly take them or their children out and about locally - they simply cannot behave and have no table manners at all.

Someone (?) once said you have to shut one eye to make friends, and both eyes to keep friends. You must be doing a lot of eye-shutting if the parents are that bad!