Hi all,
I have a ton of questions, sorry. I can conversationally speak French (reasonably well) but wouldn't even try to read legal documents in French. My parents, who actually own our rental property in the Cote d'Or, are taking lessons but speak very little. Our house isn't officially registered with the mairie.
First: is this "in the black" worker class the same as getting paid under the table? Our cleaner does a wonderful job but we just write her checks; she's not with an agency. Her husband is a handyman and recently re-did our baseboards and fixed a leak on our roof. We also paid him with just a check. Was this against the law? Eep! Our cleaner is wonderful and we'd hate to be risking dire consequences by hiring her or her husband.
Second: this past year was the first year we've had any reasonable gross income on our rental and thus we're going to pay income taxes, naturally. We aren't sure how we should classify the house. We did have a good gross income but we also bought half of the house from a horrible partner who made us pay out the nose for it, so we actually are a bit in the red for the year. So we'd like to be able to pay as little tax as legally possible...
...but in the years to come, if there's any way for my parents to start paying social security as a means of getting them "in the system" and eventually eligible for medical benefits, etc., I do think they'd be more than willing. Their plan is to eventually live there when they retire (at least for 6 months out of the year) and they'd naturally want to be able to take advantage of the medical care.
Naturally I'm not going to take anyone's advice as written-in-stone legal counsel... though I would love to hear some recommendations for a good bilingual accountant/notaire who can prepare our taxes and also advise us on these things!
Thank you in advance!
Questions about Social Security, taxes and "au noir&quo
- "Our house isn't officially registered with the mairie".
You don't "register" a property with the Mairie (it is already "registered" for local taxes) - I think the sugestion was to meet the Maire. I think this is a good idea in a village but the Maire of a big town probably doesn't want to know about you.
-"First: is this "in the black" worker class the same as getting paid under the table? "
No, "getting paid under the table? "" refers both to the tax-evasion technique of not declaring all the proceeds of a sale (and the purchaser here risks a higher CGT on re sale) and to the equally fraudulant practice of bribing an official.
"Our cleaner does a wonderful job but we just write her checks; she's not with an agency. Her husband is a handyman and recently re-did our baseboards and fixed a leak on our roof. We also paid him with just a check."
For the handyman, the law gives you no choice for anything that is repair work: you have to declare him to URSSAF (social security). For gardening you have the same choice as for cleaning: you either declare him/her to URSSAF OR pay by cheque emploi. The latter always makes more sense - tax efficient & less paper work.
A lot of cleaners refuse to be declared.
I think that the cheque emploi site (see my earlier posting) has an English translation. I'm too snowed under with work to check!
You don't "register" a property with the Mairie (it is already "registered" for local taxes) - I think the sugestion was to meet the Maire. I think this is a good idea in a village but the Maire of a big town probably doesn't want to know about you.
-"First: is this "in the black" worker class the same as getting paid under the table? "
No, "getting paid under the table? "" refers both to the tax-evasion technique of not declaring all the proceeds of a sale (and the purchaser here risks a higher CGT on re sale) and to the equally fraudulant practice of bribing an official.
"Our cleaner does a wonderful job but we just write her checks; she's not with an agency. Her husband is a handyman and recently re-did our baseboards and fixed a leak on our roof. We also paid him with just a check."
For the handyman, the law gives you no choice for anything that is repair work: you have to declare him to URSSAF (social security). For gardening you have the same choice as for cleaning: you either declare him/her to URSSAF OR pay by cheque emploi. The latter always makes more sense - tax efficient & less paper work.
A lot of cleaners refuse to be declared.
I think that the cheque emploi site (see my earlier posting) has an English translation. I'm too snowed under with work to check!
Best,
Alexia.
Alexia.
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sleekitbeastie
- Posts: 45
- Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:04 am
I think on the black and under the table can mean the same thing - under the table certainly also refers to hidden capital payments but under the table, or under the counter, also refers to undeclared trade payments. Such employment avoids tax and social security payments and I believe that that is a matter for your own conscience to deal with. However you need to be aware (as pointed out elsewhere in the forum) that you personally would be responsible for any accidents - suppose your cleaner fell down the stairs and couldn't work for some time - or ever! Maybe cleaners don't have many accidents but we had a case locally where a roofer, working on the black, fell off a roof and was badly injured. The client (an English judge!) fought liability for years but must live with the consequences.
You don't say where your parents live now or where they have paid social contributions before. However EU citizens have reciprocal rights in other EU member states. It can be hard to enforce your rights. My personal experience was that the French authorities wanted a particular form to which the UK authorities insisted I was not entitled as it was for retirees. I broke the deadlock by registering my gîte business with the Chamber of Commerce and becoming a formal French enterprise. Initially the Chamber of Commerce were unwilling to do this as I had only two gîtes but they were persuaded and I am now in the system. I’d start with the social security department in your parents home country (where they have paid their dues) and take it from there.
You don't say where your parents live now or where they have paid social contributions before. However EU citizens have reciprocal rights in other EU member states. It can be hard to enforce your rights. My personal experience was that the French authorities wanted a particular form to which the UK authorities insisted I was not entitled as it was for retirees. I broke the deadlock by registering my gîte business with the Chamber of Commerce and becoming a formal French enterprise. Initially the Chamber of Commerce were unwilling to do this as I had only two gîtes but they were persuaded and I am now in the system. I’d start with the social security department in your parents home country (where they have paid their dues) and take it from there.
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Alan Knighting
- Posts: 4120
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:26 am
- Location: Monflanquin, Lot-et-Garonne, France
Brooke,
The accountants I use are:-
When I first came to France to live and became resident in France for tax purposes they dealt with:-
I am sure there are many other accountancy firms of a similar nature. Anthony & Cie just happens to the firm I use.
Alan
The accountants I use are:-
- Anthony & Cie
Villantipolis 11,
473 Route des Dolines
06560 VALBONNE
France
Tel: +33 (0)4 93 65 32 23
Fax: +33 (0)4 93 65 42 45
E-mail: info@antco.com
Web site: http://www.antco.com/default.asp
When I first came to France to live and became resident in France for tax purposes they dealt with:-
- 1. Establishing me with the French tax authorities and making my first French income tax return
2. Arranging with the UK tax authorities my right to have all UK income paid without deduction of UK tax
3. Registering me as a "micro bic" and fending off subsequent demands for subscriptions from various organisations which had no right to make such claims.
I am sure there are many other accountancy firms of a similar nature. Anthony & Cie just happens to the firm I use.
Alan
Thank you all for your responses! Sorry I left a few things unclear.
First, I probably should have said "chamber of commerce" rather than "mairie." I really meant that we aren't officially registered as a gite.
Alexia, I will check your previous posting about cheque emploi. I had completely forgotten about our gardener, too... who we also just write a standard check to. It would be a nightmare if anyone got hurt on our property and we were liable, plus we don't want to evade taxes!
Sleekitbeastie, as you might have suspected from my spelling of "check" and other words, my parents and I are American, and we live in the US. So I'm pretty sure we have no reciprocal rights whatsoever in France. My parents are also nearing social security collection age in the States and have been contributing to that their entire working lives. My mother "heard" (which I know means absolutely nothing) that you can pay into the French system for a while and eventually earn the right to use the French health care system, and that's what my parents are keen on being able to do.
Alan, thank you for the reference! I have e-mailed Anthony & Cie and hopefully they can either help us or refer us to someone who can.
Cheers!
First, I probably should have said "chamber of commerce" rather than "mairie." I really meant that we aren't officially registered as a gite.
Alexia, I will check your previous posting about cheque emploi. I had completely forgotten about our gardener, too... who we also just write a standard check to. It would be a nightmare if anyone got hurt on our property and we were liable, plus we don't want to evade taxes!
Sleekitbeastie, as you might have suspected from my spelling of "check" and other words, my parents and I are American, and we live in the US. So I'm pretty sure we have no reciprocal rights whatsoever in France. My parents are also nearing social security collection age in the States and have been contributing to that their entire working lives. My mother "heard" (which I know means absolutely nothing) that you can pay into the French system for a while and eventually earn the right to use the French health care system, and that's what my parents are keen on being able to do.
Alan, thank you for the reference! I have e-mailed Anthony & Cie and hopefully they can either help us or refer us to someone who can.
Cheers!
Brooke
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Alan Knighting
- Posts: 4120
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:26 am
- Location: Monflanquin, Lot-et-Garonne, France