After many gite holidays in France, we have decided to take the plunge and investigate the possibility of buying a house with 2-3 gites. Unfortunately we don’t have the option of going to France on a regular basis to look at properties as we live in Seattle. We have booked a trip from 2.1.07 – 10.1.07 to look at several properties we have seen on-line. This is a very short trip, but we plan to move to France, rent somewhere and look in earnest once our house is sold.
We have thought long and hard about the questions we should ask sellers of gite complexes, but we would really appreciate knowing, as buyers, what your priority questions were and with hindsight, would you have asked anything different?
Many thanks.
Asking the right questions
Hi The Pottingers,
If you are buying an up and running complex, the first thing I would want to see is the proof of turnover - so the impots sur la revenue form for the last few years if they are a micro entreprise, or detailed accounts if they run the business as a réel simplifie entreprise.
Bills - very important - again if they run the business as a micro they are not obliged to keep a running total, but they are obliged to keep all bills (utilities are quite expensive in France) and also the local taxes - taxe foncière, taxe professionelle, taxe d'habitation for their own place, taxe ordures menagères. Insurance too, for an idea of how much this is for the business.
Other questions to ask - is there any potential for improving occupancy? Are there any other currently unused buildings that could be converted or is there the possibility of extending the season?
I would do some homework before the trip and look at a few rental listing websites for the area you are interested in and check out the availability of places, what they offer and their prices. This will give you some idea of the competition and where your potential properties stand in regard to it with their pricing structure, letting season etc. Also find out how much they currently spend on advertising and where they advertise - how many bookings do they already have for 2007, why are they moving etc.
Of course the physical condition of the properties is equally important, but I'm sure you already know what to look for there.
Don't forget that location, location, location is very important - and if the gites have a pool it is also a big plus (in fact personally I wouldn't consider buying one without a pool or the potential to install one if I wanted to make a living from the business).
I hope you have a good trip over and do let us know how your searching goes!
If you are buying an up and running complex, the first thing I would want to see is the proof of turnover - so the impots sur la revenue form for the last few years if they are a micro entreprise, or detailed accounts if they run the business as a réel simplifie entreprise.
Bills - very important - again if they run the business as a micro they are not obliged to keep a running total, but they are obliged to keep all bills (utilities are quite expensive in France) and also the local taxes - taxe foncière, taxe professionelle, taxe d'habitation for their own place, taxe ordures menagères. Insurance too, for an idea of how much this is for the business.
Other questions to ask - is there any potential for improving occupancy? Are there any other currently unused buildings that could be converted or is there the possibility of extending the season?
I would do some homework before the trip and look at a few rental listing websites for the area you are interested in and check out the availability of places, what they offer and their prices. This will give you some idea of the competition and where your potential properties stand in regard to it with their pricing structure, letting season etc. Also find out how much they currently spend on advertising and where they advertise - how many bookings do they already have for 2007, why are they moving etc.
Of course the physical condition of the properties is equally important, but I'm sure you already know what to look for there.
Don't forget that location, location, location is very important - and if the gites have a pool it is also a big plus (in fact personally I wouldn't consider buying one without a pool or the potential to install one if I wanted to make a living from the business).
I hope you have a good trip over and do let us know how your searching goes!
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Giddy Goat
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Good for you Susan! I knew you'd come up with the goods.
Pottingers, hi and welcome: this is a super forum for finding out all sorts of stuff and the search facility is another way of accessing help and info: the wealth of archived material here now is incredible. If it hadn't been for Paolo, where'd we all be?
I can't help too much re gites, as we have just the one property, and are still UK based for now, but will follow this thread with interest; there may still be things I can chip in about.
Exciting to hear of a family looking to make such a radical move, and good luck in your search, and new life! I hope that in due course we hear how you get on.
Pottingers, hi and welcome: this is a super forum for finding out all sorts of stuff and the search facility is another way of accessing help and info: the wealth of archived material here now is incredible. If it hadn't been for Paolo, where'd we all be?
I can't help too much re gites, as we have just the one property, and are still UK based for now, but will follow this thread with interest; there may still be things I can chip in about.
Exciting to hear of a family looking to make such a radical move, and good luck in your search, and new life! I hope that in due course we hear how you get on.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be
Hi Pottingers
I agree with all that Susan says. Especially with the importance of location, which is a key element in attracting visitors. If you wish to charge a good price for your gites, a stunning location and gites with the 'wow' factor are vital. Don't forget, of course, that terrific locations tend to be reflected in the price of the property.
Don't forget that the property will also be YOUR home for 12 months a year. Some parts of France are much easier for 'foreigners' to integrate into than others. Finding your feet when you first arrive isn't always easy - particularly if you have to cope with gite visitors as soon as you arrive - but it's a tremendous plus if the previous owners are still around locally to ease you into the community, answer all the questions you forgot when you bought, suggest tradespeople etc.
One of our key questions was: 'If it rained for a fortnight, would our visitors still have a good time?' Only when we were satisfied that our location could satisfy this criterion, did we buy.
Good luck with your venture. We went this route a couple of years ago and have never regretted it.
Jim
I agree with all that Susan says. Especially with the importance of location, which is a key element in attracting visitors. If you wish to charge a good price for your gites, a stunning location and gites with the 'wow' factor are vital. Don't forget, of course, that terrific locations tend to be reflected in the price of the property.
Don't forget that the property will also be YOUR home for 12 months a year. Some parts of France are much easier for 'foreigners' to integrate into than others. Finding your feet when you first arrive isn't always easy - particularly if you have to cope with gite visitors as soon as you arrive - but it's a tremendous plus if the previous owners are still around locally to ease you into the community, answer all the questions you forgot when you bought, suggest tradespeople etc.
One of our key questions was: 'If it rained for a fortnight, would our visitors still have a good time?' Only when we were satisfied that our location could satisfy this criterion, did we buy.
Good luck with your venture. We went this route a couple of years ago and have never regretted it.
Jim
Just want to add my good luck wishes for your search. We live on site and have 2 gites so I would be interested in how you can maintain privacy both for the guests and yourselves - neither side wants to be on top of the other all the time and we certainly find we need to be able to hide away at times especially from the children who we love but who think we are always ready to 'play'!
We have been here 4 years now and it has been hard work but we wouldn't change a thing
We have been here 4 years now and it has been hard work but we wouldn't change a thing
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The Pottingers
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- Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 2:38 am
Thank you all for your kind wishes and very useful information. We are really looking forward to our trip although I made the mistake of thinking advertisments for properties would be removed from web sites once they had been sold so I have been trying to make appointments to see places which were sold up to a year ago - perhaps should have made appointments then booked the flight!
Enid wrote:
Our house sits in the centre of a 'spider's web' with the three gites nearby. The gites' windows and entrances all face outwards away from us, the pool is a little distance away and we have 20 private acres of land. Our garden is large and fully fenced with a gate and a bell (we have three dogs, so this is logical). We're available when needed but keep a low profile otherwise to maintain the guests' privacy.
Anyone buying a complex and thinking of moving themselves into one of the gites rather than the owner's house should think carefully about how this could easily unbalance the existing working arrangements of the complex.
Jim
We live on site with three gites. Most gite complexes evolve from existing structures and most buildings tend to be grouped together, so this is a key issue and one that should be considered carefully when buying. If you're living on site, this is your home first and your business second and your privacy needs do take precedence IMO.We live on site and have 2 gites so I would be interested in how you can maintain privacy both for the guests and yourselves
Our house sits in the centre of a 'spider's web' with the three gites nearby. The gites' windows and entrances all face outwards away from us, the pool is a little distance away and we have 20 private acres of land. Our garden is large and fully fenced with a gate and a bell (we have three dogs, so this is logical). We're available when needed but keep a low profile otherwise to maintain the guests' privacy.
Anyone buying a complex and thinking of moving themselves into one of the gites rather than the owner's house should think carefully about how this could easily unbalance the existing working arrangements of the complex.
Jim
This is not unusual in my experience. I don't think we ever saw anything that was actually advertised. But don't despair the estate agents usually have other properties available and will show you these when you meet with them. In my experience it is best to meet with several estate agents as they all have different portfolios although there will be some overlap as many agents 'share' a property.The Pottingers wrote: I made the mistake of thinking advertisments for properties would be removed from web sites once they had been sold
Good luck on your venture.
Marion
No need to go far to shop 'til you drop - just go next door to Chanel. http://rueparadis.monsite.wanadoo.fr/
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ginelli
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Welcome folks,
I learned quickly that location is paramount. If, for example, an airport is going to be an important factor then draw a circle with a compass from it with the maximum distance you will accept. This then at least narrows down your search.
Otherwise, I'm a firm believer in asking yourself "Is it beautiful here?", "would I want to come here?"
Good luck
I learned quickly that location is paramount. If, for example, an airport is going to be an important factor then draw a circle with a compass from it with the maximum distance you will accept. This then at least narrows down your search.
Otherwise, I'm a firm believer in asking yourself "Is it beautiful here?", "would I want to come here?"
Good luck
Hi
I think you need to have a rough business plan sketched out in advance. This should include a calculation of monthly cash flow.
You need to think about property purchase and renovation costs, loan repayments, rental rates, likely letting weeks and running costs.
Once you have ideas on this, you can better review opportunities.
You should also try to estimate the first three years, as you will be aiming to improve the business over time.
As part of your later analysis you can analyse who are the likely customers, what they expect, how best to communicate with them, what are the competition doing, and "what happens if " : rentals are slow to grow, etc etc
It is surprising how short the rental period is, even in the Med area. Many people with mature businesses reckon on 10 weeks as fairly certain to be let, additional weeks being a bonus. The further you are from your customers, the less likely to have odd out of season weekend lets.
So, there is a lot to be said being near year round attractions. This could be close to beach & mountains, near a spa, or a major city.
There are many people in my area who operate established gite businesses succesfully. Invariably, they make a living, but not a fortune ! Invariably their set up costs were more than expected.
Bonne chance
Peter
I think you need to have a rough business plan sketched out in advance. This should include a calculation of monthly cash flow.
You need to think about property purchase and renovation costs, loan repayments, rental rates, likely letting weeks and running costs.
Once you have ideas on this, you can better review opportunities.
You should also try to estimate the first three years, as you will be aiming to improve the business over time.
As part of your later analysis you can analyse who are the likely customers, what they expect, how best to communicate with them, what are the competition doing, and "what happens if " : rentals are slow to grow, etc etc
It is surprising how short the rental period is, even in the Med area. Many people with mature businesses reckon on 10 weeks as fairly certain to be let, additional weeks being a bonus. The further you are from your customers, the less likely to have odd out of season weekend lets.
So, there is a lot to be said being near year round attractions. This could be close to beach & mountains, near a spa, or a major city.
There are many people in my area who operate established gite businesses succesfully. Invariably, they make a living, but not a fortune ! Invariably their set up costs were more than expected.
Bonne chance
Peter
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Giddy Goat
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Pottingers, could I be nosy ('interested' is how I'd prefer to put it!) and ask what your favoured area is? I fully agree with Peter - had we been approaching holiday rentals from a more commercial standpoint, I'd have looked at exactly those types of areas - for me, notably, those close(ish) to both coast and mountains - sufficiently close to the mountains to ski; that would be even more of a priority than being on top of a beach, because you can always offer a pool.mpprh wrote: It is surprising how short the rental period is, even in the Med area. Many people with mature businesses reckon on 10 weeks as fairly certain to be let, additional weeks being a bonus.
So, there is a lot to be said being near year round attractions. This could be close to beach & mountains, near a spa, or a major city. Peter
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be
Agreed -- so when you're planning the numbers and tabulating expected costs, increase your total by some fudge factor (probably at least 50%), and make sure you can afford that.mpprh wrote:You need to think about property purchase and renovation costs, loan repayments, rental rates, likely letting weeks and running costs.
...
Invariably their set up costs were more than expected.
Brooke
Ditto mpprh and vrooje, quesstimates/estimates do seem to be lower, very much lower than reality, make sure you have additional funds to see you through the 'early days'. We have friends who have done similiar, they are loan free, he goes back to UK for work, to put food on the table and to pay the unexpected additional costs, as they didn't have a cushion to fall back on.vrooje wrote:Agreed -- so when you're planning the numbers and tabulating expected costs, increase your total by some fudge factor (probably at least 50%), and make sure you can afford that.mpprh wrote:You need to think about property purchase and renovation costs, loan repayments, rental rates, likely letting weeks and running costs.
...
Invariably their set up costs were more than expected.
Having said that, they would not be anywhere else and are very happy in their new life.
Should you have the funds, go for it.
You dont mention children, this would of course mean a different approach to where you settle.
Wish you all the very best for your trip and your decision to rent is the way to go. Try before you buy.
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The Pottingers
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- Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 2:38 am
Thank you all for your helpful information.
Our business heads say never, never underestimate costs - I am an estate agent and spend a great deal of time counselling clients about the dangers of over stretching themselves financially to buy their dream property only to find they become miserable and poor and at worst, lose their home to the bank. I hope I can heed my own advise!
We don't have children - just the two of us and our cat, Leon and we have considered a number of possiblilities:
1. Sell up and move lock, stock and barrel - which will enable us to buy something outright and have enough money to live off for two or three years just in case we don't make any money at all.
2. Sell our house but don't sell our rental property - which will enable us to buy a property outright but have very little money to live off, but have the security of assets elsewhere.
3. Stay in Seattle and buy a smaller house in France for our retirement (many years off) much less of a financial risk but no fun as France is so far away one visit a year would be all we could manage. Not a preferred option.
4. Get a mortgage and buy somewhere which has all the bells and whistles associated with a thriving business - something we don't really want to do - the thought of being mortgage free is very appealing.
Our French is not fluent to say the least but one of our priorities is to concentrate on learning the language once we arrive.
We are flying to France tomorrow 1.1.07 and will be staying with friends in Normandy. This trip we will look around Brittany, Normandy and the Loire Valley. Hopefully this will give us some idea of what we can get in these areas for our money.
Will keep you posted.
Our business heads say never, never underestimate costs - I am an estate agent and spend a great deal of time counselling clients about the dangers of over stretching themselves financially to buy their dream property only to find they become miserable and poor and at worst, lose their home to the bank. I hope I can heed my own advise!
We don't have children - just the two of us and our cat, Leon and we have considered a number of possiblilities:
1. Sell up and move lock, stock and barrel - which will enable us to buy something outright and have enough money to live off for two or three years just in case we don't make any money at all.
2. Sell our house but don't sell our rental property - which will enable us to buy a property outright but have very little money to live off, but have the security of assets elsewhere.
3. Stay in Seattle and buy a smaller house in France for our retirement (many years off) much less of a financial risk but no fun as France is so far away one visit a year would be all we could manage. Not a preferred option.
4. Get a mortgage and buy somewhere which has all the bells and whistles associated with a thriving business - something we don't really want to do - the thought of being mortgage free is very appealing.
Our French is not fluent to say the least but one of our priorities is to concentrate on learning the language once we arrive.
We are flying to France tomorrow 1.1.07 and will be staying with friends in Normandy. This trip we will look around Brittany, Normandy and the Loire Valley. Hopefully this will give us some idea of what we can get in these areas for our money.
Will keep you posted.