Pain in Spain - a recent BBC article

[Big Sis..]

Hi Fluffs..

So how would you go about this then Fluffs.

The Hindsight I mentioned is now that we are all aware this has happened we would have more foresight....to see problems.....

It is hard to figure that the Builder, Solicitor.Planning officer, Mayor and chief of Police were all lying to you who would you ask next after being reassured by all of these.....

[Mouse]

I think as a nation we generally trust the 'professional' because in the main in the UK we can. Therefore they plug the gap of knowledge that we have when doing anything new for the first time.

unfortunately 'abroad' you can't always rely on the 'professional' being 'professional'. This is by far the biggest problem I feel.
We had a UK lawyer when buying abroad for the 1st time (in '89). He had lots of experience, knew what he was doing, spoke english & we trusted him totally. Although we also had to have a spanish lawyer, our UK one was the lead.
There was no internet then to do research, we knew no-one else who had bought abroad so was totally in his hands.

These days I wonder whether people buying abroad know that these professionals exist in the UK? Certainly these 'TV progs' don't give this advice & I feel they have a duty to. They tend to propote that buying abroad is an easy process. And, (as Alan says), it isn't and there are many pitfalls & unprofessional professionals that catch even the most savy out because they're trusted (as Ros says).
Even the locals fall foul.
My friend has just had a terrible experience with an 'estate agent' & is now setting up a website to offer advice, & asking people to post their experience of, buying on the island. But people need to be aware of where & what to look for.

Some buyers are too trusting, too nice, don't like to seem difficult & are scared of losing their dream property....these are the most vulnerable ones & if they can just put that bridge between them & the sellers by having a UK based lawyer - it would definately help I think.
A small minority of course are their own worst enemy & do everything without taking advice from anyone (unless its the man at the bus stop! )

BTW - I once advised someone on another forum to do just that & I got savaged by all the ex-pats saying I was being xenophobic & that Spanish lawyers are also professionals....I certainly didn't mean it that way. Its just a help to have another link in the chain ('specially when you're not living in the country you are buying in)

Mouse
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[Alan Knighting]

Ros,

There are no easy answers to any of these questions other than to say you have to be “as tough as nuts�.

I don’t think it’s hard to figure – I think they are the local Mafia intent on getting their hands on your money. I know there are fees to be paid for independent advice and I know that people don't like paying fees but my answer is that one must get independent advice.

An alternative could be to retire to Seaton or Eastbourne and spend holidays on the “costa packet�. Why not? It’s safer that way.

Fluffy

[Big Sis..]

that people don't like paying fees but my answer is that one must get independent advice

I agree Alan but how would you know it was ...

How would I know when I bought that the houses had proper building permission...I still dont something might comw up in subsequent years...How do any of you know really....

I must admit even though our builder is a large well established builder ...
Last year I was thinking of mortgaging the houses[as we havent mortgages on them] apart from the fact that Spanish Mortgages are good value it was more because of this Inheritance Tax if one of us dies...
.
If the houses were mortgaged that would come of first and the remainder would be taxed[apparently]

When I spoke of this to the people we bought through..
they said that the Spanish arent really into re mortgaging[which is true]
as they cant understand why you would want to buy a house you already own ...
[Now of course it is more accepted]

But the builder had a way round this we would give him back the houses via paperwork and he would sell them to us again and tear the paperwork up saying he owned them[yeah right]

The builder was quite put out that I declined his kind offer

[Guest3]

Mouse said

I think as a nation we generally trust the 'professional' because in the main in the UK we can

What Mouse has said just sums it all up!

Buying a home abroad is not the same as buying a home in the UK or probably in the US.

Alan said

that in the understandable euphoria of finding one’s idyllic retreat in the sun people abandon their normal caution. They take less care over their purchase than they do when buying a new TV set. They don’t ask any pertinent questions, they take the seller’s word for everything.

This has also proved the case of the Hollywood movie star with a team of 'good' lawyers behind him buying a 'dud' property in his home country.

[Partridge]

I've often said that the word 'shame' doesn't exist in Spain.

Brilliant Mouse, that really does sum it up

We bought through a 'reputable' massive co. with a UK office but still had some troubles. Our first mistake was not realising that the 'independant' solicitor they recommend was of course not very independant. When they sent our contract through, English and Spanish version it was incorrect, they had included our mortgage offer but also the furniture pack, which we didn''t want. We were summoned to their office when the new contract was completed, off we trotted only to find there was no English contract this time, just the Spanish one. They told us everything was fine but I wanted to check with the solicitor first and then we signed. Two weeks before completion it turned out we were paying alot more in mortage fees because we hadn't pre arranged our mortgage with them, yes, you guessed it, they had taken the furniture pack AND the mortgage thingy off of the amended contract. I went bolistic at the co. and the solicitor who had both ballsed up, contacted the HO and thought that of course they would pay these extra fees but oh no. I ended up with a curt call saying these are your option 1) pay the amount specified and complete 2)pay the amount minus the extra charges and we will charge you interest 3) do not complete and we will refund your deposit. Naive, probably, the only thing I did not realise until alot later was that which I would take for granted here, which is that you can trust your solicitor.

Ah yes, our solicitor also the one who did not inform me of the benefits of buying with childrens name on the deeds, even though I pointed out our protracted family situation and then after completion when I wanted a will faced me with all sorts of problems which could have been avoided if we had indeed have bought in a different way. Her advice to avoid inheritance tax was the best ever 'do not report it for X many years, it is too late for the government to ask for the money then, we are doing this with my husbands mother's place in Portugal, we never told them she died, it is now nearly X years and so we will just present the will and get the property put in to our names'..UNBELIEVABLE

[Guest3]

Ah yes, our solicitor also the one who did not inform me of the benefits of buying with childrens name on the deeds

I thought this could only be done if you were buying the property without a mortgage?

[Alan Knighting]

Ros,

I am not qualified in Spanish law so anything I say on the subject is nothing more than an observation.

There is the temptation to assume that things in Spain are done in the same way as they are done in the UK – they’re not.

In Spain you are not dealing with independent solicitors who prepare and agree contracts and conveyances; an Abogado prepares the contract and too many purchasers rely solely on the developer’s Abogado. As a purchaser, one should ideally appoint one’s own Abogado to look after one’s own interests.

The conveyance escritura is prepared by a Notario. A Notario represents the State not the people involved and it is his role to deal with the legal transfer of ownership according to the contract.

With regards planning permission a visit to the planning authority at the local town hall is to be recommended but I wonder how many people do. The Town Plan Plan General de Ordenacion Urbana contains details of planning from large developments down to individual planning applications.

Fluffy

[Big Sis..]

Hi Alan...

I know your not trying to say that you know all the ins & outs of Spanish Law and I agree with most of what you say. .
But say we did do this we would find that yes planning permission had been granted by the Mayor/planning officials etc...and years later we would find out that they shouldnt have done this.....
Hi Alan..
Im sure your right ..But if people had gone to the planning office we would find that indeed the plans had been passed by the Mayor/planning officers.....so no worries theyre then
If you did think anything was untoward you could maybe check with the local Chief of Police.[Trouble is they were all in on it how could you know that..]

My friend did have a solicitor and it was dealt with by the Notario.......So i really think she did all she could...
The large estate she bought on has been being built for years and this has only now been found and if you think of all the different solicitors etc that must have been used with various clients this wasnt found[or if it was it was buried.]
Im sure not all the purchasers used builders solicitors as these places are marketed by various estate agents and they have solicitors as well....
Apparently this is widespread and theyre now looking into places all over Spain......
I sometimes think its easy for people to assume it wouldnt happen to them but how do any of us know that our houses were built with the correct permission....
In Spain this alters anyway what was once 'greenbelt' is quite often released for building.....So It wouldnt be strange for Building permission to be granted differently over the years...
As we both agree though its an absolute scandal ...

[Mouse]

As we both agree though its an absolute scandal ...

spot on Ros & can I add my agreement to yours and Alans too! I think this forum debate could be useful to anyone looking in perhaps with an idea to buy abroad.
There but for the grace of god...and all that.

Alan (or anyone else with an insight) - just out of curiousity ... in law - do you know who should be held to account? Is it the politicans as the first link in the chain or the developers as they take the money (knowingly) off the house purchasers. Although both are definately at fault I wondered who does the buyer try & sue?
This is something which is never made clear in any of the articles I read (& I didn't seee the BBC programme so don't know what recompense people have in this situation).

Ros - is your friend attempting to sue on her own or have a group of people been able to get together?

Mouse
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[Alan Knighting]

Ros,

As we both agree though its an absolute scandal ...

How true! I can handle the differences between legal systems but the things I can't tolerate are legalised theft and bureaucratic corruption.

Fluffy

[Big Sis..]

Mouse,
I think shes doing it on her own behalf[shes coming to sort some money stuff for me this week so I will check...]....
were buying another house[legally I hope] in England...phew..

I think shes got a lady Solicitor and when she was told she had the option to carry on with the purchase
[shes paid about 2/3rds] and take the risk of owning completely this Illegally built house[which could be demolished] she was advised not to
as there are other 'issues' that are going to surface in the future....

So she is suing[she paid about £70,000] I think already...Im not quite sure who though
but as I say shes paying a £500 a month mortgage on it

[Donna P]

I'm new to this site but I have been reading with interest the thread on buying property in Spain. Here is my story. Being the wife of a very busy farmer I faced the prospect of navigating the purchasing maze on my own so I enlisted to the help of a property locator, Maura Dunne in Puerto de Mazarron. She did prilimary viewing for me, sending detailed reports of each property and helped me through the maze of obtaining nie numbers, finding a lawyer, going to the notery, setting up electric/water
accounts,furnishing and lighting, finding cleaning staff. All this was of no charge to myself, Maura gets her cut from the estate agent who's property you decide to buy. Conchi , my lawyer, did all the searches for me and made sure all licences were in place. Both Maura and Conchi are from very small family run firms, and I received good service from both adn was never passed on to someone else if I had a quiery they always dealt with it themsevles which proves the point that not always big is best!
By the way, I am still being pestered by the BIG companies I contacted before I found Maura, two years on, how desperate are they!!! I dread to think how pushy they would have been if they had managed to get me on one of their "viewing trips". Aparently, they stay with you the whole time and even insist on eating with you in the evenings incase you decide to pop out and look in another agents window. The pressure must be immense,
NO wonder people get themselves into bother. Unfortunately we do appear to be a nation of sheep.

Donna P
Donna P