Hello,
We are thinking of doing up a barn on our property for short-term holiday rentals. Would love your advice on a few things:
* Since we are in fairly early stages, we have a choice of making it a two bed and two bath unit, or three bed and two bath - which do you think would work better in the short-term rental market?
* Should we bother to put in central heating, or leave it with just the fireplace in the living room and not bother about any winter rentals (e.g. Christmas, New Year)?
* We are thinking that the conversion will cost 70,000 euros. Is this worth doing or do you think we will not recoup costs at all...?
The property is in a beautiful part of the Tarn, 1.5 hours from Toulouse and 1 hour from Rodez. We don't have a swimming pool and have no intentions of adding one. Thinking of making the place for adults only - the barn has a beautiful view and would be great for couples/adult families wanting to explore vineyards, go for walks, historic villages etc.
Thanks for all your thoughts!
happybee
Two or three bedrooms
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Blue Shutters
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- Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:45 am
- Location: Charente Maritime France and South West England
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I would have three bedrooms, as then it suits more party sizes/variations...even three couples....
If I was starting from scratch I would have thought that putting in underfloor heating would be well worth while as then you can have long term winter lets, and it would add the value to the property. Far easier and cheaper to do now....
I would also have a pool.....it makes an enormous difference to occupancy and what you can charge.....
I have no idea if it is all worth while though! We are in our first season so really I am not qualified to amnswer...just my thoughts.
If I was starting from scratch I would have thought that putting in underfloor heating would be well worth while as then you can have long term winter lets, and it would add the value to the property. Far easier and cheaper to do now....
I would also have a pool.....it makes an enormous difference to occupancy and what you can charge.....
I have no idea if it is all worth while though! We are in our first season so really I am not qualified to amnswer...just my thoughts.
Thanks, Blue Shutters. Good point on underfloor heating - do you think this will be enough to heat the house (along with the single wood burner already installed)- it does get very cold in winter! Guess it will cost around 5000 euros, and I would need 12 or more winter lets to justify that expense...
I see your point about the pool, but I wonder if I target adults - especially Americans and continental Europeans, whether a pool is necessary...it can be a major expense to install and maintain, and not sure if it is worthwhile...all the places I stay at are without pools and they are pretty upscale...
All good points to consider - thanks Blue Shutters and best of luck for the season
I see your point about the pool, but I wonder if I target adults - especially Americans and continental Europeans, whether a pool is necessary...it can be a major expense to install and maintain, and not sure if it is worthwhile...all the places I stay at are without pools and they are pretty upscale...
All good points to consider - thanks Blue Shutters and best of luck for the season
Hello happybee and welcome,
We went through all these dilemmas with the intention of converting our barn. We thought three bedrooms would be preferable for lettings as we counted up the number of weeks of bookings in both our existing two bed. and three bed. properties and found the three bed. one was out in front in popularity.
The figure for the conversion sounds about right, but don't underestimate the cost of all the fixtures, fittings, furniture, furnishings, equipment etc. It can run away with you, especially if you are going high spec.
Only you can decide whether it is worth doing depending on your circumstances. As for recouping the costs we figured it could take 8 years or so which is fine if you intend to carry on owning the property for the next 10 years. As for the re-sale value, because we already had several letting properties on the same site we had to consider that one more might actually detract from the setup and make it less attractive and too expensive for would be purchasers. We didn't want to price ourselves out of the market, but that might not be true in your case.
In the end, we actually settled for a new off plan apartment in a different location which proved a better investment.
The decisions depend on so many things, so good luck, I'm sure it will all fall into place for you.
Judith
We went through all these dilemmas with the intention of converting our barn. We thought three bedrooms would be preferable for lettings as we counted up the number of weeks of bookings in both our existing two bed. and three bed. properties and found the three bed. one was out in front in popularity.
The figure for the conversion sounds about right, but don't underestimate the cost of all the fixtures, fittings, furniture, furnishings, equipment etc. It can run away with you, especially if you are going high spec.
Only you can decide whether it is worth doing depending on your circumstances. As for recouping the costs we figured it could take 8 years or so which is fine if you intend to carry on owning the property for the next 10 years. As for the re-sale value, because we already had several letting properties on the same site we had to consider that one more might actually detract from the setup and make it less attractive and too expensive for would be purchasers. We didn't want to price ourselves out of the market, but that might not be true in your case.
In the end, we actually settled for a new off plan apartment in a different location which proved a better investment.
The decisions depend on so many things, so good luck, I'm sure it will all fall into place for you.
Judith
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Judith & James
Apartment in Dinard, Brittany.
Judith & James
Apartment in Dinard, Brittany.
Hi Judith - thanks for the welcome. LMH seems a lovely site and am so glad to get advice from all of you.
I think that we should aim for three beds then - any idea of what the % premium is for the additional bedroom..e.g., do you charge 10% more for the 3 bed place over the 2 bedder?
Regarding the bigger issue of renovating for a short-term let - that is indeed a difficult decision. We do plan to keep our property for ever because we love it, but then, who can really see the future?
My heart says that we should go ahead and set-up for the holiday business because I really want to do it, and use the income to supplement our savings when we retire (although retirement is in the VERY distant future)...
...my head says that we need to make the sums work. Not sure if we can get a decent return on our investment, which would need to be somewhere upwards of 12,000 euros a year from rentals. Is that plausible for a 3 bed rural gite with a great view, but without a pool...?
I think that we should aim for three beds then - any idea of what the % premium is for the additional bedroom..e.g., do you charge 10% more for the 3 bed place over the 2 bedder?
Regarding the bigger issue of renovating for a short-term let - that is indeed a difficult decision. We do plan to keep our property for ever because we love it, but then, who can really see the future?
My heart says that we should go ahead and set-up for the holiday business because I really want to do it, and use the income to supplement our savings when we retire (although retirement is in the VERY distant future)...
...my head says that we need to make the sums work. Not sure if we can get a decent return on our investment, which would need to be somewhere upwards of 12,000 euros a year from rentals. Is that plausible for a 3 bed rural gite with a great view, but without a pool...?
Hi Happybee, welcome to the madhouse.
Sensible advice has already been given, but just to add my 2 cents' worth - 3 Beds, 2 baths for sure - that's a no-brainer. Heating ditto - not just winter but shoulder seasons too - not everyone wants to faf around with a fireplace - but it doesn't have to be underfloor - in a barn conversion, you will likely find radiators (electric or whatever) cheaper - don't forget that winter lets tend to to require guests to pay their own heating bills - certainly that is what we always do.
Pool - worth its weight in gold - I've been in the Tarn in summer (that's where mon cheval was born and grew up, near Alban) - I cannot emphasise too highly the importance of a pool - you can add 50% to your prices for a private pool - it is the best investment you will ever make.
If you intend to stay there a while - go for it. Bonne chance.
Moliere
Sensible advice has already been given, but just to add my 2 cents' worth - 3 Beds, 2 baths for sure - that's a no-brainer. Heating ditto - not just winter but shoulder seasons too - not everyone wants to faf around with a fireplace - but it doesn't have to be underfloor - in a barn conversion, you will likely find radiators (electric or whatever) cheaper - don't forget that winter lets tend to to require guests to pay their own heating bills - certainly that is what we always do.
Pool - worth its weight in gold - I've been in the Tarn in summer (that's where mon cheval was born and grew up, near Alban) - I cannot emphasise too highly the importance of a pool - you can add 50% to your prices for a private pool - it is the best investment you will ever make.
If you intend to stay there a while - go for it. Bonne chance.
Moliere
Jumping is just dressage with speed-bumps.
Yes, I also agree 100% with BS and Mols. A pool is a must, it will greatly increase the rates you can charge. It is also what will give you the edge over other 3 bed. gites in the area.
We had several couples who didn't even use the pool itself, but booked because they liked the idea of lounging next to the water or telling their friends back home that were renting a property with a pool!
Judith
We had several couples who didn't even use the pool itself, but booked because they liked the idea of lounging next to the water or telling their friends back home that were renting a property with a pool!
Judith
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Judith & James
Apartment in Dinard, Brittany.
Judith & James
Apartment in Dinard, Brittany.
Is that mostly for British guests...? I lived in the US for many years, and didn't get a sense that having a pool was a very desirable thing, except for families with kids.J&J wrote: We had several couples who didn't even use the pool itself, but booked because they liked the idea of lounging next to the water or telling their friends back home that were renting a property with a pool!
Judith
Do LMHs find that Continental European (German etc.) and American/Canadian adult visitors are willing to pay a significant premium for a pool?
Our place would not be suitable for children (too many steep terraces etc.). Given that we will not be aiming for the family market, but mostly an adult market, would a hot tub be a decent compromise? Or does it seem like we are encouraging potentially dodgy activities
Thanks so much to you, Moliere and Blue Shutters - we now know that 3 beds and heating are must-dos...pool still not sure
Well I can only speak for Brit visitors, because over the last 5 years we've only had a handful of other Europeans, but Brits are significant players in the French market.
Realistically, properties near us (Languedoc) are twice the price on a like-for like basis if they have a pool. Maybe you feel that 100 km north of us you get a different market, but I woudn't have thought it was that different - certainly when we've been in the Tarn in summer, a pool was a major plus-factor.
Anyway, only you can do the maths that work for you - one thing I beg of you though - if you are going to do it, do it properly, don't take the cheap option with one of those "above-ground" pools which are totally naff and don't fool anybody - either have a proper pool, or don't have one at all (you can always direct folks to the nearest river).
Moliere
Realistically, properties near us (Languedoc) are twice the price on a like-for like basis if they have a pool. Maybe you feel that 100 km north of us you get a different market, but I woudn't have thought it was that different - certainly when we've been in the Tarn in summer, a pool was a major plus-factor.
Anyway, only you can do the maths that work for you - one thing I beg of you though - if you are going to do it, do it properly, don't take the cheap option with one of those "above-ground" pools which are totally naff and don't fool anybody - either have a proper pool, or don't have one at all (you can always direct folks to the nearest river).
Moliere
Jumping is just dressage with speed-bumps.
Totally agree with you Moliere! I do want this to be reasonably upscale, with good furniture, fine china, egyptian cotton and high-quality mattresses- things that I think adults would appreciate.Moliere wrote:
Anyway, only you can do the maths that work for you - one thing I beg of you though - if you are going to do it, do it properly, don't take the cheap option with one of those "above-ground" pools which are totally naff and don't fool anybody - either have a proper pool, or don't have one at all (you can always direct folks to the nearest river).
Moliere
But the pool thing is difficult. It is so expensive and something I personally would never use, so can't justify on an emotional/ personal preference level - the math has to work to make it worthwhile. I am wondering if the 50% premium you mentioned works mostly for families with kids?
Are there any sites which survey/list what customers value in holiday-rentals with some break-down by customer profile, holiday region etc.?
I don't know of any such sites HB - but you could do your own research very simply on Holiday-Rentals, Owners Direct, Holidaylets and Holiday-lettings.
Just go in and compare!
Actually, given you're in the Tarn, don't you have river or lake swimming nearby?
Mols
Just go in and compare!
Actually, given you're in the Tarn, don't you have river or lake swimming nearby?
Mols
Jumping is just dressage with speed-bumps.
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Blue Shutters
- Posts: 510
- Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:45 am
- Location: Charente Maritime France and South West England
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I think in the US where so many people have pools, and the weather is much better than Northern Europe in the summer, that it is true that those that travel to Europe are looking to travel......but a lot of your customers would potentially be Northern European families, perhaps not the under fives market but older children all love a pool on holiday, it's a huge novelty and we have always found it hard to drag our children away from the pool to do anything else. If you have a stunning view as well then even better. I think you will find that July and August will be let at the 50% premium guarenteed with a pool, and an upsacle property with some heating in your area will have a very extended, probably year round season with perhaps some 3-6 month lets in winter for adult only parties on extended breaks, house hunting or just artists/writers and the like needing inspiration.
The heating and pool will tap you into many more sectors of the market and make for higher occupancy levels (consider Wi Fi too) at a higher rate.
There are lots of upsacle properties with out pools, and nothing wrong at all in that but I would eat my hat that their like for like occupancy levels were anywhere near a house with a good pool. However, I think your idea of a hot tub could also be a very serious contendor...... perhaps one of those integrated hot tub/pool set ups like you get in Florida villas, I am not sure why we don't see those in Europe (where the hot water flows into the pool as a mini waterfall when the hot tub is in use) You could get away with a fairly small pool, and a huge feature would be the stunning photographs you would have of pool/hot tub and view for your advertising!!
If the house is your forever house, and retirement is quite a way off, it could work as a long term investment for your future. May not be the best investment but sometimes it's money and lifestyle.
Best not to ask us, the only idiots in the world to have bought a gite in January this year with a view to it paying for itself, as we did not have the capital and have a large French mortgage against it. We are so glad we did have the nerve to carry on now, it's not been at all plain sailing but paying a few hundred pounds a month into a pension fund (I don't have one and I am self employed) or a French house were the options. We had to start saving somewhere, and at least this way if it turns out to be a disater we will have had our dream French house in the meantime.
Go for the dream, with a very good budgetary control system in place, and don't blame me if it's bad advice as I am not qualified to dish it out!!
The heating and pool will tap you into many more sectors of the market and make for higher occupancy levels (consider Wi Fi too) at a higher rate.
There are lots of upsacle properties with out pools, and nothing wrong at all in that but I would eat my hat that their like for like occupancy levels were anywhere near a house with a good pool. However, I think your idea of a hot tub could also be a very serious contendor...... perhaps one of those integrated hot tub/pool set ups like you get in Florida villas, I am not sure why we don't see those in Europe (where the hot water flows into the pool as a mini waterfall when the hot tub is in use) You could get away with a fairly small pool, and a huge feature would be the stunning photographs you would have of pool/hot tub and view for your advertising!!
If the house is your forever house, and retirement is quite a way off, it could work as a long term investment for your future. May not be the best investment but sometimes it's money and lifestyle.
Best not to ask us, the only idiots in the world to have bought a gite in January this year with a view to it paying for itself, as we did not have the capital and have a large French mortgage against it. We are so glad we did have the nerve to carry on now, it's not been at all plain sailing but paying a few hundred pounds a month into a pension fund (I don't have one and I am self employed) or a French house were the options. We had to start saving somewhere, and at least this way if it turns out to be a disater we will have had our dream French house in the meantime.
Go for the dream, with a very good budgetary control system in place, and don't blame me if it's bad advice as I am not qualified to dish it out!!
I think Holiday Lettings did a survey a while ago where they compared various factors in letting, but I remember thinking that it wasn't necessarily that useful. Does anyone have a copy of it?
We don't have a pool, but we are directly on a river, and in an old part of town where we would never be allowed to put in a pool. If we had a place in the country instead, we would definitely put in a pool because, when we rent, we prefer a place with a private place where we can swim, even if it's just a few laps in the morning.
I should note that I'm American, and that if you're going for the upscale American market, a pool may indeed be important. I've worked with many higher-income clients here in the US, many of whom have an in-ground pool. Around where I grew up, those without (and some with) pools of their own join country clubs or yacht clubs that do have pools.
A jacuzzi might be a decent solution if you're unwilling to put in a pool. It might be good for shoulder-season bookings too. For me personally, though, I'm not sure I'd want to use a hot tub during the heat of summer.
Good luck making this decision; you're doing the right thing by going strictly with the numbers if a pool isn't something you'd use. Don't forget to include the cost of maintenance in your math.
We don't have a pool, but we are directly on a river, and in an old part of town where we would never be allowed to put in a pool. If we had a place in the country instead, we would definitely put in a pool because, when we rent, we prefer a place with a private place where we can swim, even if it's just a few laps in the morning.
I should note that I'm American, and that if you're going for the upscale American market, a pool may indeed be important. I've worked with many higher-income clients here in the US, many of whom have an in-ground pool. Around where I grew up, those without (and some with) pools of their own join country clubs or yacht clubs that do have pools.
A jacuzzi might be a decent solution if you're unwilling to put in a pool. It might be good for shoulder-season bookings too. For me personally, though, I'm not sure I'd want to use a hot tub during the heat of summer.
Good luck making this decision; you're doing the right thing by going strictly with the numbers if a pool isn't something you'd use. Don't forget to include the cost of maintenance in your math.
Brooke
Another vote for three beds with a pool. Don't rule out "families with children" just because you've got steps, people still go on holidays with their teenagers.
I'm concerned about your budget though. We've done two barn conversions and they are very expensive, both worked out more expensive then a new build of equivalent size. Don't forget you might need a new fosse. And make sure you budget for the furnishings. We had a 10K budget for furniture, but it isn't enough, certainly not when you start counting kitchens and white goods and bedding etc etc.
I'm concerned about your budget though. We've done two barn conversions and they are very expensive, both worked out more expensive then a new build of equivalent size. Don't forget you might need a new fosse. And make sure you budget for the furnishings. We had a 10K budget for furniture, but it isn't enough, certainly not when you start counting kitchens and white goods and bedding etc etc.