I'm going with Brooke and saying that a pool isn't an essential to getting excellent bookings - you only need to look at Normandy Cow's, LaVilleauTady's (and Vrooje's own) properties on this forum to see examples of that. Location and a pretty, characterful property are important too. But maybe the fact that they are all 'homes" rather than 'gites' with no owner living nearby is a factor, I don't know. An inground pool will cost a lot of money (20k€ with heater) and that is the only way you will be able to charge twice as much, the small plunge pool type things don't enable you to increase the price by much, if at all.
I'd definitely go for the 3 bed property and I'd check on the availability calendars of other properties in the region before investing in central heating. If they have lots of winter bookings, go for it, but if not, I wouldn't bother. Winter bookings (except Christmas and New Year) have a small profit margin.
Two or three bedrooms
Thanks to all of you for your advice!
Babnick, you are right, most of the properties in the area that have a pool do seem to charge a premium, although there are properties which have a pool and are very reasonably priced - if I had kids, I would definitely go to those, rather than my potential barn-rental with the nicer interior and great views...
Moliere, there are loads of rivers close by (10-20 minutes drive), and a communal swimming pool (5 minutes drive)- but not sure if that will meet the demand that Vrooje is talking about, and these folks are my potential target market
The thing is, I will need at least 12,000 revenue a year to make the holiday-let feasible. If I add a pool, I would need to get 8,000 euros more a year...how likely is that?
Maybe I should look into Blue Shutter's suggestion of a US style hot-tub or Vrooje's suggestion of a Jacuzzi... (aren't they both just different names for the same thing?)
Babnick, you are right, most of the properties in the area that have a pool do seem to charge a premium, although there are properties which have a pool and are very reasonably priced - if I had kids, I would definitely go to those, rather than my potential barn-rental with the nicer interior and great views...
Moliere, there are loads of rivers close by (10-20 minutes drive), and a communal swimming pool (5 minutes drive)- but not sure if that will meet the demand that Vrooje is talking about, and these folks are my potential target market
The thing is, I will need at least 12,000 revenue a year to make the holiday-let feasible. If I add a pool, I would need to get 8,000 euros more a year...how likely is that?
Maybe I should look into Blue Shutter's suggestion of a US style hot-tub or Vrooje's suggestion of a Jacuzzi... (aren't they both just different names for the same thing?)
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Blue Shutters
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Strictly speaking, it is a smallish stone building with a bread oven, and we plan to make a post-and-beam addition, with big glass windows to draw in the views. We are working with an architect to use more modern materials that are cost-effective, yet fit in with a 'barn' feel. We have budgeted for 85,000 euros (10% over our estimate) - Ju, given your experience, do you think that it would cost even more?Ju wrote:
I'm concerned about your budget though. We've done two barn conversions and they are very expensive, both worked out more expensive then a new build of equivalent size. Don't forget you might need a new fosse. And make sure you budget for the furnishings. We had a 10K budget for furniture, but it isn't enough, certainly not when you start counting kitchens and white goods and bedding etc etc.
La Vache, thanks for your advice on winter lets and looking at nearby occupancy rates. I suspect the market is very, very slow in winter, although heating might be required in April or October.
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Blue Shutters
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I would imagine getting a feel for winter lets is harder, most would be 1 month + I suspect, and not necessarily show on the vacation rental websites, a winter may be blocked out as not suitable for letting or because there is a 6 month let in situ. Do you know of anyone else around who could give specific advice for your area?
Your ideas sound stunning. I know a "pulled from the air" figure of €100 000 and upwards was quoted for our barn, but it really has few walls and no roof at all......a total non starter for us!! I suspect more like double that! I would only listen to people like Ju who have actually done this sort of conversion.....their experience is worth 10X anyone else's opinion! I know the roof is a large part, so perhaps you already have a good roof on the barn and your figure may be achievable.
Your ideas sound stunning. I know a "pulled from the air" figure of €100 000 and upwards was quoted for our barn, but it really has few walls and no roof at all......a total non starter for us!! I suspect more like double that! I would only listen to people like Ju who have actually done this sort of conversion.....their experience is worth 10X anyone else's opinion! I know the roof is a large part, so perhaps you already have a good roof on the barn and your figure may be achievable.
I think €12,000 is readily achievable, but I wonder about €20,000 in the Tarn? If it were me, I would go for the hot-tub option, and seek out all the best swimming lakes / rivers around - prepare maps, towels, picnics etc. We were in Austria last summer - the hotel had a very nice pool complex, but it wasn't a patch on swimming in the lake - the Wolfgangsee - that was pure joy!happybee wrote:Moliere, there are loads of rivers close by (10-20 minutes drive), and a communal swimming pool (5 minutes drive)- Maybe I should look into Blue Shutter's suggestion of a US style hot-tub or Vrooje's suggestion of a Jacuzzi... (aren't they both just different names for the same thing?)
If you find there's a demand, you can always add a pool later. . . !
Mols
Jumping is just dressage with speed-bumps.
Le Vache, the barn already has modern electricity (well done, as it was previously used as a home office) and is connected to the water supply.la vache! wrote:We renovated my house, which was originally a barn. There was already a good roof, already a fosse and it still came in at 70k euros without any of the furniture. I did all the painting or that would have been another 10K€. I agree with Ju, your budget seems on the small side.
Given quotes which we had gotten for previous work, we think 70k for the work (including kitchen counters, bathrooms and white goods but excluding furniture and bedding and kitchenware) is reasonable, assuming we can use the existing fosse. This is also assuming we do not add central heating or a pool
If it does cost a lot more, say 100k to do up the place (without a pool), then we will need to earn 16k a year from holiday lets - are you LMHs laughing as you hear this, or do you think it is achievable?
I'd seriously look at what your competitors are achieving regarding weeks let and their prices for a comparable property. The 'normal' guestimate is to work on a maximum of 12 weeks rental and of course only half of those weeks will be at peak prices. I think you'd be pushed to achieve 12k€ with a 3 bed barn conversion/no pool, sorry!happybee wrote:If it does cost a lot more, say 100k to do up the place (without a pool), then we will need to earn 16k a year from holiday lets - are you LMHs laughing as you hear this, or do you think it is achievable?
I echo La Vache's comments - this market is already well-subscribed, so don't think it will be easy! We usually gross about €25 - 30k pa, but that takes a lot of investment of time and effort, it takes a lot of costs in pool maintenance, wi-fi, cleaning, laundry, taxes etc etc, it requires constant monitoring of the market, reaction to enquiries, it's hard work - especially from England! And we maybe end up with a surplus of 2 or 3 thousand Euros (in a very good year)
For Pete's sake, don't assume you'll make an instant profit - if you break even in year 3 that will be good, then you can build - as you get more experience, so you will know what upgrades will work for you. Like everything - it's a steep learning curve!
Mols
For Pete's sake, don't assume you'll make an instant profit - if you break even in year 3 that will be good, then you can build - as you get more experience, so you will know what upgrades will work for you. Like everything - it's a steep learning curve!
Mols
Jumping is just dressage with speed-bumps.
Hi Mols,Moliere wrote:I echo La Vache's comments - this market is already well-subscribed, so don't think it will be easy! We usually gross about €25 - 30k pa, but that takes a lot of investment of time and effort, it takes a lot of costs in pool maintenance, wi-fi, cleaning, laundry, taxes etc etc, it requires constant monitoring of the market, reaction to enquiries, it's hard work - especially from England! And we maybe end up with a surplus of 2 or 3 thousand Euros (in a very good year)
For Pete's sake, don't assume you'll make an instant profit - if you break even in year 3 that will be good, then you can build - as you get more experience, so you will know what upgrades will work for you. Like everything - it's a steep learning curve!
Mols
I am hoping to gross 12k (not make a profit of 12k), to make the additional investment of 70k worthwhile. La Vache seems to think that is not very realistic, and she may well be right. If you are getting revenue of 25-30k per annum, that is really good
Fine, but take a look at our website - I think we will probably have different markets simply as a result of location.
Now here's a thought - can you make your barn properly disabled-friendly? Because that is a much-underserved market, and could make a heap of difference to your bookings.
Mols
Now here's a thought - can you make your barn properly disabled-friendly? Because that is a much-underserved market, and could make a heap of difference to your bookings.
Mols
Jumping is just dressage with speed-bumps.
Just to pick up on the earlier point re underfloor heating, our 3 cottages are in a conversion of an old stone barn in Cumbria - not renowned as the warmest place on the planet in winter! We put in underfloor heating, along with very high levels of insulation. The U/F heating is a wet system running from ground source heat pumps, and it works really well in keeping the cottages evenly warm. U/F heating also uses zero wall space - have you noticed how radiators are always in the way when you're trying to place furniture? We do have logburning stoves in the lounges, but guests use them less for heating and more for mood.
Probably can't help with much else, as we're comparing UK with France, although converting an old existing building is likely to hit unforeseen snags, and I think I'd be looking at a lot more than 10% contingency - although that will depend very much on the current condition of the building, and whether anyone is willing to commit to fixed price for the work.
Best of luck with everything.
Probably can't help with much else, as we're comparing UK with France, although converting an old existing building is likely to hit unforeseen snags, and I think I'd be looking at a lot more than 10% contingency - although that will depend very much on the current condition of the building, and whether anyone is willing to commit to fixed price for the work.
Best of luck with everything.
Obviously the price is going to depend alot on the current condition of the barn, and on how much work you are going to do yourselves.We saved tens of thousands by doing alot of the grunt work, all of the ceilings, and all of the tiling (not to mention the painting) ourselves.
My gut feel is that for a three bed place 100K Euros would be more realistic (not counting furnishing).
My own rule of thumb is that you should be able to make a 10% gross return on investment. 12% might be possible if you are lucky. But that does include the cost of the barn in the first place.
Ju
My gut feel is that for a three bed place 100K Euros would be more realistic (not counting furnishing).
My own rule of thumb is that you should be able to make a 10% gross return on investment. 12% might be possible if you are lucky. But that does include the cost of the barn in the first place.
Ju